Author Topic: God and his involvement in our lives  (Read 11476 times)

Wyldwing

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God and his involvement in our lives
« on: September 06, 2009, 11:38:06 »
Y'know.  I am a bit wishy washy when it comes to religion.   :o

I've spend many years of my life a non-believer.

Then, I kinda got into it a bit and started attending church and everything.  And kinda getting into it. 

But, due to the extreme religous nature of my relatives...I have to admit...I see the overly-religuous as a confused bunch.  I'm actually getting a bit "turned-off".  Here's what I mean...and if you have ideas that might clarify some of this for me, I would love to hear them.

1) Praise God for everything good that happens. - What?  Ok...so Nathaniel studies his ass of to pass a test, and we thank God for him getting an A?  What?  Why?  Why wouldn't we praise Nathaniel for studying?  My cousin's van breaks down, a neighbor offers to lend them a car.  They thank God for that gift.  What?  How about THANKING YOUR NEIGHBORS for the car??  THEY are the ones that provided it.  You know how I know God wasn't involved?  Because he doesn't mess with free will.  So...why Thank God?  Can NOTHING good happen without thanking God?

2) When bad things happen, it's part of God's plan.  What?  God had a plan for that lighting to strike the Church steeple last night and cause a fire in a church?  WHAT?  Who can honestly believe that a church fire would be part of God's plan?  Can't bad things just HAPPEN?  Just like good things can just HAPPEN?  What about Jaycee?  innocent children?  If that's part of God's plan...then he's pretty messed up...


3) Over-reliance on "God will help me through this".  It's amazing how the overly-religious will sit on their ass and not act to help themselves because God will solve their problems for them.  They lose their job and they casuall float through with the "God will provide" instead of busting their hump trying to fix the situation.  At what point does God stop and personal responsibility for your own situation start?


Here's what I'm thinking...God has a relationship with us and we with him.  He watches over us, but doesn't interfere too much in our lives for good or bad.He simply watches.  This would explain why bad things happen.  He has a laizze-fair attitude, which he should.  He put us on this planet to LIVE, not just to be a servant to him.  To enjoy life...that should be our goal.  Not to worry so much about the bible, God, what pleases him, etc.  He's given us the rules to live by.  We follow those and live our lives.

So...if I have come to THIS conclusion...then what about prayer?  Does it do any good?  I see many people pray for the more frivilous crap you could imagine.  For example, playing settlers...they actually prayed for a number to be rolled?  WHAT?  Talk about a waste of God's time.  Do you really think that God gives a rats ass about you producing brick?  How do you know that God wants YOU to win this game...Why would he even care?

If God's attitude is hands-off...then what good does prayer do?  If it's ALL HIS PLAN, then isn't praying like talking to a brick wall?  Say your child is in the hospital...God is calling him home...that's God's plan (as they say)...what good will asking God to spare that life do?  If it's "God's Plan" to "call him home", then what will your prayer do? 

Just a little confused...but...why should I be any different than anyone else?  I think I'll just enjoy my life and continue that way...living morally, kindly, and lovingly.

« Last Edit: September 06, 2009, 11:53:01 by Wyldwing »

Dragon

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Re: God and his involvement in our lives
« Reply #1 on: September 06, 2009, 16:53:17 »
I'll start this off by saying that I understand your point (I think) but I still believe that there is power in prayer. I don't know if you consider me to be one of the overly-religious people that you're referring to or not, but I do agree with some of your points. I hope that we can have a friendly agreement to disagree on any points that clash and not turn this into a religious war. I don't intend to make it that with my comments.

I agree that some people completely rely on God too much and just try floating through life without doing anything. I don't believe that God will do much for or against those people. I will give Thanks to God for giving me the ability to focus and hold the knowledge needed to take a test though, especially if it is one that I've studied a lot for, because those are usually the ones that I'm most worried about and less confident in myself.

I also agree that God gives us life to LIVE and ENJOY, but he also our creator, our Father. Just like your own children, you want them to live, be successful, and enjoy life. You want to help your children when you can, but don't you think you'd be more loving and giving to a child who showed you love in return?

Regarding praying for everything, I think you're absolutely right, that God doesn't care if we roll a seven on the dice or get the card we need to win a stupid game. That would be a frivolous prayer. Personally, I'm thankful that luck came in my favor for those. However, if I were to win a Million Dollar Lottery, I'd definitely thank God, because that would be a life changing event right there.

As far as Free Will goes, Yes, God gives us Free Will, but I also believe that we get hints from God and his Angels regarding things in our lives. I can't say that I have ever heard from God directly, but I think it's something that comes with your conscience. Sometimes we listen to our conscience and sometimes we don't. I think that is how God might influence someone. Not CONTROL THEM, but just give subtle hints, which, of course, non-believer's can chalk up to whatever they want. (I think we also get some messages from Satan that way too though, so that's another tough part.)
« Last Edit: September 06, 2009, 17:02:53 by Dragon »
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Wyldwing

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Re: God and his involvement in our lives
« Reply #2 on: September 06, 2009, 20:03:21 »
No...I wasn't speaking of you...more like my Orlandian relatives...I value your input and will wait to comment further to see what anyone else has to add...and...no religious wars here.  I'm not bringing it up to argue...I'm bringing it up to hear POVs different than my own, so I might learn a little something.

Beth

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Re: God and his involvement in our lives
« Reply #3 on: September 07, 2009, 11:45:25 »
I think as far as prayer goes we pray to God because He asks us to in the Bible.  "Be joyful always; pray continually; give thanks in all circumstances, for this is God's will for you in Christ Jesus" (1 Thessalonians 5:16-18). Of course God knows everything we need but he still wants us to ask. "Matthew 7:11
If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask Him!" My father was a scrap dealer he would get loads of metal and take them in to the scrap yard and get money for them.  He told me about a few times that it would be raining all the way there and he would pray and ask God to help him.  He said the rain would stop long enough for him to get the whole load unloaded and then would start back when he got back in his truck.   This type of thing has happened in Nathaniel and my life as well.

Having God in your life is knowing that He always has a greater plan for your life.  My mother in law told me how after Nathaniel's father's knee surgery.  He wasn't able to work for a long time.  He was the main wage earner in the home.  She worked as much as she could but she didn't have skills or knowledge to earn the income he had been earning.  Their home went into foreclosure and she was very sad about that.  She said looking back on it.  God did have a plan.  They were able to go long enough without having to make payments on the house for his father to recuperate and when the house was completely foreclosed on they were able to get an even nicer house to rent.  Though my mother in law is very ill now due to past experience I can believe that there is a plan that maybe we cannot see right now. "James 5:13-16 Is any one of you in trouble? He should pray. Is anyone happy? Let him sing songs of praise. Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven. Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective."

Sometimes we do not know what to pray for.  Nathaniel and I have wrestled with this as well.  We don't want to be selfish in our prayers. While thinking about your post and looking things up I found this verse. "Romans 8:26 In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express."

As far as people losing their job and just expecting God to get them another one without them working on it that is wrong according to the Bible.  I am sure that you have read the story of the ten talents in Matthew 25:14-30.  Which I think is telling us that if we don't use what God has given us even the little we have will be taken away but if we use what we have been given more will be given.  The Bible is God's written word to us so it is good for study.  Of course the jobs that I have gotten I do thank God for.  The job I have currently I do not have the requested degrees etc for but somehow I got it and am doing well with it. I do work as hard as I can and do not take the job for granted.  I don't think that if we get something good we should just attribute it to how hard we worked.  God gave us the ability to work hard and the drive to get it done since He created us.

On the point about people asking for sometimes frivolous things.  I know that I have done this in the past too.  You discussion made me look up some more Bible verses that cover this. "See James 4:3 When you ask, you do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, that you may spend what you get on your pleasures." Like I may ask God to have me win the lottery. I can try to think well I would spend most of it on things to help others out. But a lot of it would only be spent on myself and family. How do I know I would be really better off?  If you look at many people who have won the lottery their lives look worse
after a while.

I cannot say that I know or understand it all or that anyone else knows and understands all of this.  I think we try to do our best to do what is right and believe that God is watching from above and all things work together for good to those that love God and are called according to his purpose. Romans 8:28.  I don't believe that God just put us here and expects us to live without his involvement or caring.  Why would he have Jesus die for us if He didn't care?
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TylerChuit

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Re: God and his involvement in our lives
« Reply #4 on: September 08, 2009, 00:46:11 »
I can't help on this point, as after long years of trying to twist my logic into pretzles as to why God would allow things and not allow others, I finally went athiest.

It's actually a bit freeing to just be kind for the sake of the benefit of others, and not worrying about building some sort of afterlife credit.  When I give now, it's to make myself and others happy, and not to bolster my chances of getting into heaven.

In my opinion, religion is a deep seated myth invented by early man as a way of explaining the workings of the world around them, and later exploited by civilization's leaders as a way to keep the masses in line with promises of wealth in the afterlife for those who behave, and damnation for those who disobey.  As humanity kept developing, so did religion; going from sacrificing virgins, to sacrificing animals, to sacrificing cash.   And don't get me started on how the republican party has been exploiting religion in the past few years.  That's a topic for another thread...

My belief is that religion is a tool of comfort and control, and that although prayer is a positive reinforcment for a lot of people's daily lives, it's a placebo, and that humanity's own positive thoughts and actions are in fact the cause of the good things that happen to us, and our collective bad actions that cause the bad stuff.  Why did my mom have a heart attack and get cancer?  Was it the will of god?  No, she ate junk food and took lousy care of herself.  It wasn't because she was a bad person, she was a wonderful person that everyone who knew her loved.  It had nothing to do with 'devine will', it was the logical conclusion to her lifestyle choices.

Don't get me wrong, I'd LOVE to believe that there was a great purpose to everything, and that it was put in place by a benevolent creator, and that there's a place for us to go after we die.  That way of thinking just no longer makes any sense to me, and it's been coming on for a long time.  Like I said, I've tried to make it work in my head for too long, and it just doesn't anymore.

Anyway, you wanted other viewpoints...

I'm not trying to convince anyone to stop believing in God.  You have questions, and it is good to ask questions.  Everytime I try to have discussions like this with religious people, it usually ends with them saying that it's all about "faith" and that the fact that it doesn't seem to make sense is where you have to fill it in with some kind of belief.  If you can justify it to your own satisfaction, then more power to you. 

Honestly, I actually hope I'm wrong.  Even if that means I spend the rest of eternity in hell, at least my mom would still be out there and in a better place. But I won't hedge my bets in order to try to play it safe.  That's not being honest with myself.   I do appreciate that I was brought up religious, but I think that good moral values can actually be taught without having to resort to the threat of eternal damnation.  I believe we as a culture have outgrown the need for religion, but persist in hanging on to it for our own personal agendas, most of which are selfish when you get right down to it.

I hope I made it clear that that I'm merely placing my own views on the table, and that I'm not trying to pass judgment on you guys or tell you how to live your lives.  And I hope this doesn't affect our ability to spend time with each other playing board games.  I usually like to keep opinions like these to myself, as knowing people's views on things that might differ from your own often color your perception of them, and I'd hate for that to happen.  I love all of you guys and really value being able to spend time hanging out and having a good time.
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Dragon

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Re: God and his involvement in our lives
« Reply #5 on: September 08, 2009, 09:37:31 »
Thank you for your input Chris.

Even scientists that believe in evolution have faith, although their faith is not in God. Did you know that scientists have not yet seen an ATOM? The theory of ATOMS is taught in probably every high school in America, yet no one has even seen one. It's just something that they feel they have enough evidence of that it must exist. No matter what you believe, it has something to do with faith.

It is unfortunate that ungodly "Christians" are so common, just exploiting religion. This happens quite a bit today, but that's also nothing new. Priests throughout the ages have used their position to take advantage of others. The Bible talks about these people in Matthew 7:21-23.

"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'"

God wants us to be loving and to be giving to others and him. Those sacrifices that we make are to God and are supposed to be helpful to others who need it and to spread his good word. (Even the animal sacrifices that the Hebrews did in the Old Testament were not meant just to waste away. They were used to feed the priests and for feasts.)

I'm sorry that you've been through so much hardship that you've lost your faith in God. I believe that you are a very good man and appear to be more like a man who loves God than some "Christians" that I've met. I hope and pray that you will eventually be reunited with your mother in heaven. God doesn't want any of his children to have to be separated from him, but every person must make their own decision about accepting his gift of life in heaven.
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TylerChuit

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Re: God and his involvement in our lives
« Reply #6 on: September 09, 2009, 00:24:36 »
My understanding is that they did first "photograph" atoms in 1985 using an electron microscope.  There is a discussion about the subject HERE.  Regardless, no one has ever been told that an atom thinks that who they love is wrong, and so far the application of religion has only ever started wars, while the application of atoms has only ever stopped them... also if they had been able to blow the crap out of Hiroshima by somehow splitting God, I'd have no trouble believing in him either.  ;)

It wasn't hardship that stripped away my faith, but merely an increasing feeling that logic and religion are at odds with each other.  That the belief in mystical, supreme beings was merely a stop-gap measure to fill in what we didn't know a few thousand years ago about things like what causes thunder, or why the sun always rises from the same direction every day.  I just used my mother as an example of my belief that our own history and life choices, coupled with the input of the world around us, is what guides our destiny, and not devine intervention.

[Edit:  Also, I just found this... http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/8225491.stm] :o
« Last Edit: September 09, 2009, 00:30:43 by TylerChuit »
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Dragon

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Re: God and his involvement in our lives
« Reply #7 on: September 09, 2009, 12:46:56 »
I realize that there are scientific explanations for things, and also that there are plenty of theories out there that have some hefty evidence in their favor. I'm currently taking 2 science classes (which is where I heard, from the professor, that we've never seen an atom yet). My point is that science (and religion) are similar in that there is enough evidence for someone to accept it if they want to. Both science and religion also have another thing in common, which is that beliefs are changing and they have to be updated based on new evidence which may be contradictory to beliefs in the past or just more evidence that there is something more logical.

There are things in religion that I grew up believing but they didn't seem to make sense as a child. Now that I've expanded my knowledge of religion I believe differently than when I was young, but I haven't lost faith in God. For example, most people, including myself, grew up being taught that we have an immortal soul and that bad people burn in Hell forever. Of course, we have to use the Bible as our guide and there just is not evidence there for that. I do believe that Hell is a real place of punishment, but I don't believe in eternal torture. The Bible teaches that if we don't get to heaven we will be separated from God eternally. If we join him in heaven that we will be given everlasting life. There isn't anything specifically in the bible that says people will get punished with separation and eternal life in Hell.

By the way, on the lighter side of things, that was a pretty funny comment about splitting God to blow up Hiroshima. Do you think that would create another Big Bang?  :D
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TylerChuit

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Re: God and his involvement in our lives
« Reply #8 on: September 09, 2009, 18:23:55 »
My problem with comparing religion to science is that when someone comes up with a new scientific theory, it is classified as "theoretical" until it can be proved or disproved through research.  Until that point, it's taught as "theoretical", whereas pretty much the entire basis for religion is theoretical, but it is still preached, and used in the indoctrination process as "fact".   

Also, When a scientist believes something scientific, they usually believe it to be a possibility that could potentially be disproven.  When a person of religion believes something religious, there is a certainty caused by the threat that if they don't truely believe it, they will pay for their doubt in the afterlife, or at the very least, "if part of my religion is flawed, then what about the rest of it... best not to think that way." A scientist is taught to think critically, and question everything.  That was never a trait I was taught in church.

The example you gave about atoms doesn't really apply, since even though scientists had gone for a long time without actually seeing one, atoms were able to be measured and verified as factual in other ways.  It's like time.  We can't see it, but we KNOW time exists because we can mark its passing.  There's no litmus test for your soul.

Now my question is, where are the "new" religious theories coming from?  My only guess is that they are being crafted every time science makes the old religious theories less than plausible.  Like patching the holes in a leaky boat.  To my way of thinking, there isn't really a whole lot of research that can be done to prove the validity of any religious claim, unless you want to try something like the Kevin Bacon film "Flatliners". 

I imagine a big pie-chart where on one part we have "Known Science", and the rest is "Unknown Science".  In the unknown science side, we have the sub-category of "Theoretical Science", and then there's a big circle in the middle of unknown science marked "Religion".  Every time we nibble another bite out of the unknown side, religion has to shift and restructure itself in order to remain feasable.  You might argue that this is a natural progression of religion, but I personally found it hard to base the safety of my "immortal soul" on beliefs that have had to be reinterpreted every few decades. 

Religion regularly dismisses any initial changes in our understanding of the world until it can no longer do so, and is forced to incorporate it somehow, and then try to make it seem like that's what God meant all along.
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Wyldwing

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Re: God and his involvement in our lives
« Reply #9 on: September 09, 2009, 20:51:12 »
This discussions is interesting.  It's funny because it's clear to me that Beth has some REALLY stong religious feelings and Chris has none.  Nathaniel appears to be somewhere in the middle.

Several reasons made me run from religion...many logical.

1) How can you choose?  What I am a Jew?  And I don't believe in Christ?  Then, according to the Christians, because Jesus is the truth, the light, the way, I don't get into heaven because I don't accept Christ.  Does that mean all the Buddhists don't get the afterlife bennies?  What about the Scientologists?  What if I AM Christian and I choose to be a protestant and I enjoy Coke Zero...if the Mormons are right...I am going to hell...over a soft drink?  So many religions...which is "the right one"?  They all claim to be...there are going to be THOUSANDS of disappointed people in the afterlife.

2) Too many little rules.  Mormans can't have caffiene, Jews can't eat pork, some can't wear hats in church, others MUST wear hats (Yamulkas) in church (temple), you must go to church on Sundays, you must go to church on Saturdays, you must pray several times per day.  It's not that I am against rules...well...yeah, I am, but the point I'm trying to make here dovetails with my first issue.  Which one is right?  I wear a Yamulka into Temple and I'm going to hell because, darn it, Islam was the right way to go...how was I supposed to know?

3) My God couldn't be this unjust.   Brn-again Christians say that just because you accept Jesus Christ as your saviour, you get a first class one way ticket tot Heaven?  This is true for ANYONE?  So I spend my life raping, killing, stealing, and breaking just about every other commandment there is and because I accept JC 3 hours before my death setence is carried out, I am heaven sent?  And the farmer that spends his life morally living a life of Islam, who has never heard of JC, dies and because he didn't he goes to hell?  Sorry...MY God would be more just than that.

4) "It's part of God's Plan" - Is not an acceptable explanation.  It's a cop out answer to "I don't know".  Innocent children dying isn't part of MY God's plan.  It can't be.  My God wouldn't allow such atrocities if they could be avoided.

5) Bible, Torah, Koran?  Pick one...which is correct?  Much overlapping info..but just different enough to really cause a problem.  Nuff said.

So...to reconcile all of that in my brain...like Chris...I am a logical guy.  I ran from religion like he did.  I'm not sure what I believe right now...but I went for years believe what Chris believes.  I think now, I believe in a God that might be interested in our lives, but is a silent partner that just observes.  If you have sausange on your pizza, he could care less, have some coffee?  Too trivial for him to care about. I'm certain that he has better things to worry about.  I do believe that prayer doesn't do any good.  Look at the millions of people that prayed for Michael Jackson to live.  Didn't work out even with that many voices behind the same preyer.

I also refuse to thank God for everything good in my life unless I get to blame the crappy days on him as well.  I choose to believe that I create my own destiny, not God.  I have the free will to go to work tomorrow and earn a living...I could just as easiliy play hookey and go to DisneyWorld and get fired.  Either good or bad...it's my decision that made it happen...



Dragon

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Re: God and his involvement in our lives
« Reply #10 on: September 10, 2009, 09:33:03 »
I think free will seems to be on the forefront of this discussion. As far as that goes, I fully agree that we have free will and God isn't going to control us. We make choices in our lives that affect us and others.

Jews believe in God (many even believe in Jesus), Christians believe in God, Mormons and even Islamic people believe in God. We all just have a different interpretation of what he expects. Some tribes of people still don't specifically know about Jesus, but when they are found they often have basic knowledge of God and the right way to live. I don't think it is about which interpretation of the bible that you start off with, It's all about having a relationship with God. If you don't have a relationship with God, it doesn't matter what religion you follow or which church you go to. (Scientologists believe that they become Gods, but I don't think they believe in God [the Father, Creator of the Universe, YHWH, Jehovah]. Please, correct me if I'm wrong there.)

For example, just because someone knows my name and address doesn't make us friends. A salesman might come up to my door, sometimes even enter my house and talk to me for a while, but it doesn't mean that we have a bond.

If you want to drink Coke, eat pork, listen to Country music, or smoke a pack of cigarettes each day, those are choices that you make that could affect your life. If you have a relationship with God, it is still your free will to make those choices. It's your love for God that counts. God loves you and wants you to love him. Only a mutual relationship like that can be blessed. I choose not to eat pork because I believe that, through the Bible, God has said that there are better things to eat and I'm listening to that advice. Does that mean that I think only people who don't eat pork are going to heaven? No, not at all. I just think that this is one of those choices in life that God has shown me a different, and better, choice. We listen to advice from marketing advertisers, scientists, parents, and friends all the time. Why not consider some advice from God?

Is that thieving, murdering, rapist, going to have a true change of heart in his last hours of life, or is it just another selfish act trying to get him into heaven? The Bible says that God knows your heart. People might judge your actions, but God can see right through the lies.

Read the bible, study, pray, and learn what the bible means... Religion alone isn't going to get anyone into heaven. God built and opens the doors to heaven for us, not the priests. The priests don't know your heart.
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Dragon

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Re: God and his involvement in our lives
« Reply #11 on: September 10, 2009, 10:03:18 »
I had missed the post from Chris when I replied to Charles. So I'll comment on that briefly now.

My problem with comparing religion to science is that when someone comes up with a new scientific theory, it is classified as "theoretical" until it can be proved or disproved through research.  Until that point, it's taught as "theoretical", whereas pretty much the entire basis for religion is theoretical, but it is still preached, and used in the indoctrination process as "fact".   

...

Scientific facts change sometimes too. Nothing is proven 100%. Scientists do research and challenge their theories, modifying them to make them stronger and more resistant to being knocked down in the future. Things are constantly changing in science with new discoveries. Sometimes, even despite evidence contrary to what they believe, those scientists will continue to believe that their theory is correct. Does every single scientist believe the same thing? No.

We can study the way that things work in the world to understand why the bible teaches us the way that it has. God gave people guidelines on how to take care of our bodies. These guidelines were recorded in the Bible before science was able to come along and show reason. Before there was a justice system, God told us how to take care of people and handle issues when they came up. Religions are theories. Each new religion came up because someone found something different, a new explanation, but not everyone agrees.
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TylerChuit

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Re: God and his involvement in our lives
« Reply #12 on: September 10, 2009, 12:38:35 »
Nothing is proven 100%.

If that's your honest belief, I can't imagine a point to continuing this.  I think we've all stated our opinions plainly, and given Charles the input he was looking for. 

At the end of the day, religion has nothing to do with why we are friends, and I think that continuing this discussion will only lead to the inevitable going around in circles, which usually leads to arguing.  We all have our own beliefs, and like I said at the start, if they get us through the day with peace of mind, that's what counts most. 
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Dragon

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Re: God and his involvement in our lives
« Reply #13 on: September 10, 2009, 14:13:46 »
That's true, but I don't want to end on the wrong emphasis. My point is that people shouldn't expect religion to have all the answers, but rather build a relationship with God.
"Hello IT. Have you tried turning it off and on again? ... OK, well, the button on the side. Is it glowing?... Yeah, you need to turn it on. Err, the button turns it on. Yeah, you do know how a button works, don't you? No, not on clothes." - Roy (The IT Crowd)

TylerChuit

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Re: God and his involvement in our lives
« Reply #14 on: September 10, 2009, 15:25:43 »
Fair enough. :)
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